Welcome to the Empirical Cycling Podcast. I'm your host, Kolie Moore, joined by Kyle Helson, and today we're going over how you can and why you may not want to lift heavy while endurance training. We're going to start off by doing a little bit of overview of common and conflicting lifting advice, and then we're going to go into some scientific research, and we're going to start introducing you guys to some of the common molecular pathways. that occur in response to aerobic training and strength training. And we're going to talk about how we can use this knowledge to write better training programs and periodize strength training better. And before we go into that, I want to thank everybody as always for your support, for listening to the podcast, for recommending the podcast to your friends. For the donations, we've got a donation page. So if you think the coaching you're getting is worth a buck or two, head over to empiricalcycling.com and we would love to have your dollar. Yeah, and so for all questions and coaching inquiries and whatever else you got, email empiricalcycling at gmail.com and that goes right to me. And without further ado, tell me some of the very common lifting advice. that you've seen in various places and let's go over how they kind of conflict with other advice that you've read from similar sources. I think if you read a lot of the commonly available cycling articles and things like that about lifting, one big thing that people seem to disagree about is when you should be lifting and when you should not be lifting. So one School of Thought is that you should lift during the off-season and lift during base training. And then as soon as any of the like sort of on the bike work gets more intense, you should stop lifting and as you move toward actual racing. I think the reason behind that is typically a standard sort of periodization argument against lifting when you're closer to racing because with Normal Periodization, the closer you are to races, the more race or competition-like your training should be, and most people will tell you that lifting weights is fairly not specific to racing a bike or riding a bike, and therefore they assume that you should drop it. The other sort of camp there is that you should be lifting pretty much all year round, likely not during taper, but Trying to maintain strength that you built during the off-season in your base period, especially because cycling is not at all like strength training, and it's, you know, if you do the calculation, it's very low force. The amount of force that you apply to the pedals, even during sprints, is very low force compared to the amount of force that you would typically apply in something like a back squat. So then people think, well, oh, maybe you should be lifting all your rounds so you can sort of better maintain these gains that you build in the offseason. So what's the argument for maintaining strength? Because that kind of goes with this too. The argument for maintaining strength is that you want to support this high force production that you want to use during sprinting, for example. And you can stimulate that through... Lifting Heavyweights. Also, if you participate in a cycling discipline like cyclocross or mountain bike where you tend to be in a lot more low cadence, high torque situations, like the movement transfers better is what you're trying to say because, you know, it's a lot like doing a leg press with one leg. Correct, yeah. Or a lunge or something like that, yeah. Yeah. And some of the benefits of lifting, you know, We can't really ignore these because I assign heavy lifting to a lot of my athletes or almost all of them actually and some of the benefits are things like bone density, you improve your mind-muscle connection and that's not like a woo-woo term, it's literally your neural drive and motor unit recruitment which leads to greater force production. One of the things that we commonly see when people start a lifting program is it benefits them everywhere. Like, you know, like your FTP power output might go up a little bit. Your five-minute power will almost definitely go up in your sprinting and your one-minute and all that stuff. This is because the neural benefits are immediate. They come in in the first couple weeks. The bone density, this is important for cyclists who are in a very low-impact sport. Like you were saying, the force is very low, so the load on the bones is pretty low. But doing heavyweight training or even a little bit of riding or something like that is a great way to make sure that you don't actually break your femur next time you fall off your bike. I think the other thing is that, as an example of this sort of mind-muscle connection, A few months ago, pinched a nerve in my neck, and that meant that I had a lot of weakness in my right arm, and I actually, when going to PT, was prescribed to do pretty basic strength training exercises for my right arm, because while I wasn't gaining any muscle, I was forcing my body to, like, re-figure out how to use the nerve that runs from the, you know, the C6 nerve, in my case, that runs from the base of your neck all the way down to your thumb. So it is real. And you can also look at it this way where if you are a brand new trainee to strength training, you will actually be able to put on poundage on your lifts very, very rapidly. And that is not because you're packing on muscle like you're going to show up to the Olympia next year. It's because your mind and your body is actually getting, you're becoming more attuned to actually performing the movement. Yeah. You're recruiting the muscle fibers in the correct way to get better. Yeah, exactly. And there actually used to be a myth that people didn't start to actually build muscle when they first start lifting, like it was thought to be entirely neural for the first like, you know, six or eight weeks. And that actually turns out not to be the case. You actually do start building muscle fibers, but it's really not that much. and it's actually this neural connection that's one of the really important things that we need to think about when we periodize strength training and whether we actually need to do strength training in season so if you're a road racer and you are doing sprinting but you don't have enough of these high force scenarios you know it doesn't matter how heavy The load is like you can maintain your mind-muscle connection just by sprinting. And that's, you know, like Kyle said, it's the force is a lot lower in sprinting, but you do maintain that neural connection. And this is why sprinters like Marcel Kittel will do weight training in season just a little bit in order to maintain that connection because, you know, like I said, road racing does not typically do enough for you neurally in order to maintain that. And it's actually not about the strength. It's not about the muscle. And we'll talk about a little bit how we can actually maintain muscle with just a little tweak of our nutrition. But a lot of the quote unquote strength losses that we might see during a race season are not actually losing. Your muscle mass and the force that your muscles can produce is actually just your brain is losing its practice telling your muscles to contract that hard. So it'll look like you're losing a few pounds off your one rep max squat, for instance, in season, but honestly, you're not because your muscle mass is still there. And after a couple weeks of getting back into strength training, you're actually going to find out that you're right back where you left off. I think another example is you can think back to the run-up to the Rio Olympics when Mark Cavendish was focusing on doing well on the track again. He was lifting a lot more and he was winning sprints again. He was climbing like a brick, but... He was back to his like HTC days where all of a sudden he would he would just emerge from the field with like a two bike length lead in the last hundred meters and like how is this guy doing it and a lot of that was from his very track cycling specific workouts which included more lifting than his you know Tour de France green jersey focus programs and we're actually going to get into discipline specific strength Program, Sets and Rep Schemes, Exercise Selections in future episodes. So keep an eye out for that. So I think right now that's a good way to kind of wrap up the neural aspect of strength training, which is one of the really important aspects you need to consider when you are trying to fold in strength training into your cycling plan and, you know, figure out if that's kind of the right thing for you at what time. But there's other aspects of figuring out if you should or shouldn't lift. at certain points in your season. And I'm not going to pass any judgments on that in this episode. I'll judge plenty in the other episodes. But right now, it's really important, I think, to go through the actual adaptive pathways of strength and aerobic adaptation. So we're going to go through a couple papers, and we've got them all up on the empiricalcycling.com website. under podcast episodes under this episode. So if you want to read the papers yourself, you are more than welcome to head over there and check them out. So the first one we're going to go over is the classic Hickson study from 1980. Now this was one of the very first papers to look at what's called concurrent training. So concurrent training is doing both strength and endurance training at the same time. He really pushed these people hard. Like, okay, so what he did was, okay, so he divided up his participants into three groups, strength, endurance, and strength and endurance. So those three groups. The strength group trained five times a week for 10 weeks focusing on leg strength because, you know, you've got to, if you want to look at if endurance, aerobic work, and strength work interfere with each other, you've got to do it in the same muscle. So he had them doing squats, knee extensions, and knee flexions on one day. On alternate days, they would do leg press and calf raises, and they would lift at about 80% one rep max, and they would add weight regularly to maintain the proper intensity as they got stronger. The endurance group did six times a week for 10 weeks training, and they alternated six by five minutes at their VO2 max on an ergometer with, you know, they... Making sure they were actually at their VO2 max with two minute rests. Have fun with that one. Yeah. Yeah. And that was for cycling. And then on alternate days, they did just steady state continuous running, not too intense. The strength and endurance groups did both protocols simultaneously. So each workout only took like, you know, 40 minutes to an hour or something like that. So, you know, it's not a time. Ton of actual volume, but it's really strong aerobic work and it's really strong strength work. So check this out. What happened to their one rep max? The strength group, their one rep max squat went up 44% or 42 kilos on average. Not too bad. Yeah, that's really good for working out, you know, 10 weeks straight, five days a week. The endurance group saw no significant change in their one-rep max. The strength and endurance group, the one-rep max went up the same as the strength group until the seventh week. And then it plateaued, and after the eighth week, it actually started to decrease. They actually started losing strength. So what happened to VO2 max? The endurance group... and the Strength and Endurance group gains VO2 max in similar amounts. The Strength group saw no VO2 max increase. So what we're looking at here is the interference effect is what this is called. The interference effect being a phenomenon of ongoing concurrent training. So if you're listening to this and you've done a program that's similar to this, and you noticed your strength not increasing anymore, this is why, this is exactly what happened and we'll get into the molecular pathways in a minute. So how does this interference occur? So there's a couple things that we talked about a little bit earlier like So early strength training, you know, first couple weeks has a very large neural component, the learning component to like, you know, learning to connect your brain with your muscles and make them contract harder. So there's probably no interference effect there. But the reasons postulated are that they were tired from the endurance training, you know, or maybe they were tired after seven or eight continuous weeks of really hard double sessions. And, you know, anybody who's tried to do this, you know, if you can't recover from your first workout of the day and then your second workout is strength, you're not going to be able to lift enough weight to actually improve. So that doesn't actually explain why their lift went down. One of the other theories postulated is that it's an energy deficit. So the lifting group was burning about 2,000 calories a week. The endurance group was... Burning about 6,000 calories a week. And this is a significant amount of metabolic stress. And you know what's funny, and we'll see this in a little bit, is that when you combine lifting and metabolic stress, your muscles actually grow. So their legs actually may have been getting bigger, but they weren't actually gaining strength. So what we saw in this study is that Aerobic work when done simultaneously with strength work actually takes precedence over the strength work. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, I think that actually kind of jives with what everyone in the like hardcore bodybuilding strength athlete world is afraid of that doing cardio is going to quote kill their gains and they're not always wrong about that. They're likely assuming that doing any cardio is going to do it, and this is actually doing a lot of cardio. Yeah, this was a really significant training program. Like, this was, you know, it was absolutely not easy. And, yeah, and actually, you know, what's funny is we're going to actually get into what's about the threshold for this kind of stuff in a little bit. So one of the cool things about modern science, like in the last, you know, 20 years or so is that we've had great success actually looking at the underpinnings on a molecular level. So I'm actually going to gloss over as much as I can, but I really want to get across two things. The first is something called mTOR. It's the mammalian or mechanistic target of rapamycin. You don't need to know that. mTOR is a pathway in your cells that starts to send its signal when you have a strength stimulus or a possible protein stimulus. We'll get to that in a second. And so these two things together make mTOR make you build muscle. Yeah, so that's basically if you're able to track this pathway, it gives you an insight into protein synthesis in your muscles from... Strength Training or something like that. Yeah, pretty much. And so the other pathway we're going to talk about is called PCG1 Alpha. And I actually think that we went over this briefly in the high-intensity training episode, right? Yeah, we did. We at least mentioned it by name. Right. So, okay. So the PCG1 Alpha is your actual main aerobic signal pathway. PCG1 Alpha, like its triggers are... Endurance Exercise, like metabolic stress. You see a change in cellular calcium, NAD, AMP, phosphate, and glycogen. And so these are signals that actually make you go, oh, we need to do more aerobic stuff, so we're going to get on that. Okay, so now what I want to do is get into a literature review from Keith Barr from 2014. Again, full text up on the website. reviewing all of the literature on concurrent training and the molecular pathways. So he looked at these two pathways, and if you actually Google PCG1-alpha mTOR interference, you're actually going to see a molecular pathway. It's pretty much like they draw the schematic of a little cell, and then they put little blobs for each little protein, and they Point, like this one makes this one work, this one makes this one work, and what's really cool about the body is when you start to look at these pathways is that you actually see arrows that go over to like a little T, and this means this inhibits this, this stops this. So there's a really complex web. If you've got one signal happening and you've got an opposing signal happening, where does the cell send its resources? We don't have infinite energy to do everything all at once. If we did, that would be pretty awesome. But we don't. So our body has to make these decisions of which one to prioritize. And this actually happens to be PCG1-alpha, the aerobic pathway. For evolutionary purposes, something must have been beneficial in our... Ancestor's History that would have made being aerobically fit more important than being physically strong. Actually, maybe. Because one of the really cool things that Keith Barr goes over in this literature review is how long do these signals last once they're activated? And the answer is PCG1-alpha, like this aerobic pathway, it's over in about three hours. Huh. Yeah, so you get this big hit, and then you're done. mTOR, in people who are brand new to strength training, is actually active for over a day. In the paper, Keith Barr estimates 18 hours, but if you're new, I've seen numbers as high as elevated over resting levels out to 48 hours for people just starting strength training. And as you become more accustomed to strength training, the mTOR signal only lasts for a handful of hours. So Keith Barr puts a pretty good average at 18 because people who are doing concurrent training are probably not the best strength trained people in the world and they may be very good aerobically. So he probably estimated like an intermediate lifter. So 18 hours for mTOR to be active. Now this is probably a pretty good estimate. One of the other cool things is that high-intensity interval training, I looked at a study that did 10 by 6 second maximal sprints, also inhibits mTOR. Interesting. Yeah. But given what we talked about previously with how it activates PCG1-alpha, this is... probably shouldn't be that surprising, I guess. Right, yeah, like we said in past episodes, the aerobic system is what helps you recover from these high-intensity interval-type training. Yeah, precisely, and yeah, we talked about that in episode two, and there's a Training Peaks article on that coming out pretty soon, too, so keep an eye out for that. And so actually, What's interesting about mTOR and PCG1-alpha is actually that the inhibition of mTOR by PCG1-alpha doesn't fully explain the inhibitory effect that we actually see when we have people doing concurrent training. So there are actually other pathways. We're not going to get deep into these right now. Don't worry. So it's SIRT1 is one of them and AMPK, AMP-activated protein kinase, which is another Big Protein in the aerobic pathway. So these two also may have a big role in inhibiting mTOR from happening. So you're saying if I want to get huge, I should just sit my ass on the couch all day and never do anything aerobic? Well, you'll get huge in one way or another. 

Okay, so I also checked out a study on concurrent training that did fiber type analysis. I didn't find a lot of these, and this was a pretty good one, I thought. So what happened was, with just strength training, type 1 fibers, these are your slow twitch fibers, the very efficient fibers. People like Chris Froome are like... Entirely Slow Twitch. So Type I fibers did not grow. Type II fibers grew in the group that just did strength training. The group that did concurrent training, both Type I and Type II fibers grew significantly. And like I said earlier, this is how hypertrophy training works. You give the muscle a high load and you give it a strong metabolic demand and that's That's how it grows. So muscle fibers are actually very, very plastic. They respond to training pretty quickly. And people like Andy Galpin, if you don't know him, absolutely check out his Instagram, check out his podcast, Body of Knowledge. He knows a lot on fiber types. So he's like the go-to fiber type guy. So he's actually investigating how fiber types shift quickly. So what we actually saw in the study that we're looking at here is that there was actually no shift in fiber types with concurrent training. And with just strength training, we actually saw that the fiber types slowly started to switch over to fast twitch without endurance training. So this is one of the things that I warn my athletes about if they want to lift a lot all year. They like the gym. It's a nice change of pace. You don't have to kid up. You can just, you know, throw some weights on the bar and have at it. And, you know, so I tell them, like, there are trade-offs. If you really, really want to do this and you want to lift heavy, you're not going to become a more efficient aerobic athlete because you're going to be telling your muscles, no, I still need these fast twitch fibers. I haven't seen a long-term study on this, but it seems like what would happen is you're pretty much going to put a lock on your fiber types as is. So if you're a sprinter and you're getting to the end of your race is fine and you don't want to increase your slow twitch fiber proportion too much, yeah, hit the gym. If that's what you want to do there, then I think that's the first lesson that we can really give the audience here about how to apply concurrent training. I think what's also interesting just from this study and a lot of the Andy Galpin stuff is that a lot of people out there think that you can't undergo significant fiber type changes in the muscles that you have. Sprinter, or you're born an endurance rider, and that's it. Like, no amount of, like, you can get better within those frameworks, but whatever you're born with, like, those are the kind of muscles you're stuck with. And I think that a lot of the new science that's coming out is definitely going to show that that is not the case. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one of the old myths was that your VO2 max, like, you're born with it, and it can never increase. Yeah, that would also be a... Patently false for anyone who's gone out and done tests where they're attached to a respirometer or whatever. Yeah, and actually the same point about being able to train your VO2 max up to your genetic max, it does kind of apply to fiber types too in that you'll never turn Chris Froome into Chris Hoy with training, but at the same time, you can definitely get a significant shift in fiber type with training. Okay, so in the Keith Barr paper, One of the really cool things that he does in a lot of his papers is that at the end, he actually goes through and puts a bunch of bullet points, like check this out, check this out, check this out. This is how you apply the science, and this is one of the great things about Keith Barr. He's probably my second favorite scientist, sorry Keith, to Walter Herzog. So what I'm going to do... from, I'm actually going to summarize a couple of the important points from the end of Keith Barr's paper and add in a couple of my own points. One of my own points here is that, you know, while I was looking at some other studies on concurrent training, like trying to find what's the limit of concurrent training, like how hard and how often do you have to go to, you know, stop your strength stimulus. And one study found that four days a week at 80% of VO2 max or above, so pretty much FTP training, like that's enough to fully inhibit the mTOR pathway and stop strength gains from happening. Another study found that 15 minutes at 70% of VO2 max, so you know, estimate sweet spot-ish, maybe tempo, after lifting led to no mTOR activity, so that like pretty much completely stopped it in its tracks. Oh, it's probably important to notice, and we'll talk about this in a second, but that is doing the aerobic work after lifting. And so order can and does matter with these things. Yeah, it really does. And, you know, like we said earlier, you know, the N4 pathway, apparently if you don't stop it, it's going to last for, you know, 12 to 48 hours, you know, estimate 18 if you're like moderately strength trained. And so now that we see that we can actually stop mTOR activity from occurring, we can actually still lift weights and ride immediately after. You just go right to the spin bike in the gym and hit it for 15 minutes at a moderate pace. you know you can actually stop yourself from actually gaining muscle that way and so this is one of the cool things about molecular biology and molecular science is that now we like we can actually use this to improve our training programs and periodization so if you are a sprinter and you need that neural connection or you know you're a climber or a mountain biker or whatever it is and you don't want to gain any weight this is one of the strategies and there's a lot of them that we can use in order to keep you from gaining too much muscle mass, if that's counterindicated by your discipline and whatnot. What's interesting is that, I think, and this is purely coincidental, throughout my college swimming career, 99.9% of the time, we were doing our morning... Workout in the pool first and then going to the weight room afterward. And I always actually preferred that because I always felt horrible when you'd lift and then dive into the pool and try to like slog through a two-hour practice in the water. But it looks like actually for swimming and for short races and me having been a sprinter then too, that was actually probably preferable. And so that's actually one of the things that we need to keep track of in our training programs is that if you can't recover well enough from one to the other, no matter which order you have them in, you may not actually be able to do the other one as hard as you need to do it because, you know, in order to, like, get better at lifting heavy, you need to lift heavy. So what you're saying is that if you're, say, yeah, if you're one rep max on a back squat is 200 pounds and From doing all of your aerobic training or from just daily life stress, you're not mentally able or physically able to get yourself to do heavier sets at 160, 170 pounds. You're not actually going to be lifting enough weight to generate that strength stimulus. Yeah, precisely. And you can think of it this way. It's like if you tried to go out and do an FTP workout and you could only get... threw it at Zone 3. Well, it's no longer an FTP workout, is it? You know? Yeah. Yeah, we actually mentioned that in the 2x20 episode about how you're kind of chasing your TTE, your Time to Exhaustion, with FTP stuff. And it's very similar, like, in that way, like, between FTP and endurance work. and Strength Work is that in order to get better, you need to work yourself to the point that your body is realizing is deficient in what you want it to do. And so that's how it gets better. And so one of the other things that Keith Barr points out is that diet impacts your mTOR signaling greatly. So if you want to maintain muscle mass and you don't want to lift, The recommendation is that you actually eat leucine-rich foods. Now, leucine is one of the branched-chain amino acids, which is isoleucine and valine. And so leucine in particular, and this is why people suggest you supplement branched-chain amino acids, what it really is is leucine in particular is a very, well, it's not a potent stimulus, but it is a stimulus for mTOR to be activated. Foods that are high in leucine are like whey protein, yogurt and milk and cheese. And so you don't actually need to take branched-chain amino acids if this is what you want to do. Just take a scoop of whey protein. There's more other proteins in there that are good for you too. I think there's also other, there's been some other work, and I can't think of it off the top of my head, but basically saying that even if you, That in order to, right, you have to reach this like leucine threshold to actually stimulate sort of muscle protein synthesis. And therefore, if you're doing what a lot of people might do and eat like essentially no protein throughout the day and then at dinner eat like a huge steak and potatoes, you're actually not being as efficient with distributing your protein intake as you could be. Oh yeah, absolutely not. And we'll get into this in another episode on diet and protein in particular. But yeah, so while we're on it though, the... Best use of protein is really like 15 to 25, just call it 20 gram servings just periodically throughout the day. So just keeping a steady drip means your body can use it. If you overload your body, it goes, oh my God, I got to put some of this in storage. And it just like rips the nitrogen off and it's like, all right, we're going to do other stuff with this molecule. Yeah. And you end up peeing out all of the nitrogen. Yeah, you pretty much do. So there's no reason to ever take like 100 grams of protein shakes despite what all those, you know, what the dude at GNC wants to sell you or something. Okay, so one of the things that I've noticed in my coaching experience with people lifting heavy is that, you know, lifting heavy once a week for a lot of athletes actually acts like kind of like a break or a limiter on on their ability to perform aerobically. And there's not any science behind this. There's not any good data other than typically when I stop an athlete from lifting altogether, they're getting into their final build preparation and about to get into the race season. The week that I stop them lifting, and I've done this in a couple spots, like mid-block, at the end of the block, at the beginning of the block. Whenever it happens, their performances aerobically start improving rapidly, and I think this might be because of fiber types, it might be because of a billion other things. So in my experience at least, I'm being fully honest that this is just experiential, is that lifting Can interrupt you aerobically as well. I think that makes sense, especially for people who are limited in both the amount of time they have to train and the amount of stress that they have that's not fitness related, right? Like, we were talking earlier, if you're doing a lot of training, you're not able to recover from the training that you're doing, like, it's not going to do you any help, and so... removing the strength training stimulus is going to make it a lot easier for your body both to respond and then recover from all the aerobic training that you're doing. Yeah, and actually that's an interesting point because the last point that Keith Barr makes in this paper, if you want to increase your muscle mass, and he pretty much wrote this with team sports in mind, because team sports do a lot more strength and conditioning than cyclists do, and they do it. year-round a lot more than cyclists do. So if you want to increase your muscle mass and strength, but your training load is too high to really get any good strength work in, then it's better to make part of your off-season dedicated to strength work and nothing else. And now on the other side of things, for primarily aerobic cyclists who don't really need that much explosive power and muscle mass like a team sport athlete would, I actually find that, okay, so just a forewarning, like I've tried to keep my opinion out of this so far, but this is my opinion on things. So I typically don't like to do heavy lifting in season with endurance cyclists. And the reason for this is, first of all, it's important from an energy management standpoint. If you're doing a lot of heavy lifting in season, then you need to recover from that work. And it's not that the pathways of mTOR and PCG1-alpha are interfering in such a way that the aerobic stimulus is attenuated. It's actually more that the metabolic range that you're working in and also the heavy lifting stimulus of the Type II fibers These are actually things that I personally want to avoid in most of my endurance cyclists. So for the listeners out there, how often were they strength training in the off-season and then how does that shift? Like as an example, obviously you don't have to, it can vary, but you know. Yeah, sure. Yeah, it does depend on the person. I think the most I have... Any endurance athlete lift per week in the offseason is twice a week. You know, we build them up to heavyweights, then we do some heavyweights, and then we, you know, then we shift over to other stuff. So I think one of the big lessons here today is that, you know, I'm not going to pass judgment on whether you should or should not lift all year round. I don't have my athletes do it, but that's just what I do. So if that's something you want to do, then now you've got a little more knowledge on the tools that you can use in order to make the strength training and the endurance training do the things that you want them to do in your program. Yeah, so hopefully everyone listening here got some good information about what lifting heavy weights does for endurance athletes and how they can better plan. or strategically incorporate lifting weights into their training programs. And if you have more questions about some of the nitty gritty details with lifting like exercise selection or the exact set rep scheme, stuff like that, we'll talk more about those details in a different episode. Everybody, thank you for listening. 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